Scrum and Kanban stronger together

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Scrum and Kanban stronger together
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May 10, 2017
2.7 from 16 ratings
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What is your reaction to reading this post’s headline? Do you feel a sense of affirmation because you believe that Scrum and Kanban are
compatible? Or do you feel irritated because you fall firmly in either the Scrum or Kanban camp and believe one approach outperforms the
other?
I believe that exploring how Scrum and Kanban can complement each other is long overdue. I base this opinion on my experience as a former
Accredited Kanban Trainer and Coaching Professional and my current role as a Professional Scrum Trainer and Scrum.org team member. My take
is that because Kanban and Scrum practitioners have broken into separate camps, software teams are missing out on practices that would
improve their effectiveness.
I’m not alone. Daniel Vacanti makes the same argument. Daniel was on the team that developed the Kanban method, and he was the first
manager to apply Kanban within the context of a real-life project. Today, he is the CEO and co-founder of ActionableAgile and author of
Actionable Agile Metrics for Predictability . He wants to see greater collaboration between our two communities as well.
Many of us whose role it is to promote Scrum and Kanban have improved our understanding of each approach and recognize that the two have
more similarities than differences. Daniel and I agree that rather than wasting energy defending our separate camps, there’s greater value to
gain from working together on our shared goal of helping organizations deliver outstanding value to their customers.
Why this is the time to foster a new Scrum-Kanban Relationship
Scrum recently celebrated its 21st birthday, which in many cultures is the age of adulthood. It’s a significant milestone that is often an occasion
for reflection. Scrum has achieved a lot over the past two decades. Ninety percent of teams that use Agile use Scrum with a total of 12-15
million practitioners. What will sustain Scrum’s relevance in the decades to come is our commitment to the Scrum values, which were recently
added to the Scrum Guide. One of these values is openness. When we are aware of other effective Agile practices that are complementary to
Scrum, we should embrace them. It’s time to recognize the strengths inherent in the practices of Kanban and to explore how our two approaches
can connect to produce better outcomes.
From Daniel’s perspective, he is experiencing a renewed spirit of inclusion and collaboration born from a movement within the Kanban
community to return to its roots. “For many reasons, the Kanban community has strayed from its founding principles of inclusion, learning, and
collaboration,” he explains. “During the process of exploring how we need to regroup, the Kanban community is looking at what makes other
communities successful. This has led to a realization that we have much more in common with other groups than we had previously
acknowledged.”
 
Making the Case
Daniel and I are going to explore how together our two approaches can achieve better results. To kick off that exploration, we’re going to start
with a blog post series that will cover the basics of Scrum and Kanban and tackle how the various practices can enhance each approach.
We invite you to contribute your thoughts and suggestions. If there are points you would like us to cover or questions you’d like us to
answer, let us know in the comments, and we’ll make sure to address them.
 
Update: First post in the series is now live.
 
Here are some of the topics we plan to explore:
All I Really Need to Know I Learned In … (Part I)
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A Kanban primer for Scrum Teams
 
All I Really Need to Know I Learned In … (Part II)
A Scrum primer for Kanban Teams
 
Diet of Worms: What Scrum Gets Wrong about Kanban and What Kanban Gets Wrong About Scrum
Dogma and negative rivalry have interfered with real learning. We will dispel the myths on both sides.
 
ScrumBan or KanScrum? It’s Neither: How the Two Really Should Work Together
The two set of practices are not mutually exclusive. We’ll examine how they’re complementary.
 
Hobson’s Choice: Scrum or Kanban?
Must you choose one or the other? Should anyone ever have to make that type of decision?
 
MEET DANIEL VACANTI AT THESE WORKSHOPS
 
Actionable Agile Metrics for Predictability
An Introduction to Kanban for Scrum Teams
 
If you’re in the Boston area, Scrum.org is hosting two workshops that will give you hands-on experience using Kanban principles with Scrum.
Seats are limited for this June 22nd event so register today.
Hope to see you there!
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Louis-Philippe Carignan
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− ⚑
8 years ago edited
Great article Steve. I agree both communities should learn from each other by fostering collaboration. It will only make our profession better at the end.
10 1
Alan Larimer
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− ⚑
8 years ago
Thank you, Steve. First for attempting to remove barriers and promote conversation through knowledge share and Openness. Second for actively participating in
discussion through these comments; it is a valuable, rare, and valued thing! I look forward to seeing the resulting work.
2 0
Steve Porter
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− ⚑> Alan Larimer
8 years ago
Thanks Alan.
The second post in the series is due his Wednesday. Stay tuned!
0 0
Timo Veldt
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− ⚑> Steve Porter
6 years ago
Hello Steve! It seems that this topic has been abandoned. Or is the material available elsewhere?
0 0
Steve Porter
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− ⚑> Timo Veldt
6 years ago
We announced an formal initiative almost two years ago.
If you search for Kanban on our resources page, there's more there.
https://www.scrum.org/resou...
0 0
Bruno Baketarić
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− ⚑
8 years ago
Collaborate and learn from each other: Sure. A must. (EOF)
Create hybrids: Beware! IHMO there's a fundamental difference between Scrum and Kanban that makes blending them at least a high risk game (Footnote: initially I
wrote "virtually impossible"). Scrums primary constraint and constitutive approach to manage work is (quite rigid) time-boxing. Kanbans primary constraint and
constitutive approach to manage work is (quite rigid) use of explicit WiP-Limits - along with an absence of time-boxes or any other time-bound constraint (the Kanban
cadences are not constraints).
A better understanding of 'signals' that help to decide which approach to use would be beneficial - especially if a whole Org is on a transition: Which parts of the Org
should use/start with what method, on which level (Task, Feature, Product, Portfolio - vertical relation)? How to manage a switchover from one to the other in the value
stream (horizontal relation) - if such a switchover makes sense at all? How do metrics look like in such a case?
Basically, I see plenty of options as well as questions in a organizational context. I hardly see any value in picking some ideas and/or practices from here and others
from there to create a hybrid, which is then to be used by whatever organizational unit. Both methods have "conceptual integrity" just as they are - and that has to be
preserved. There's still enough room to explore how they can complement each other - but each as a whole.
2 0
Steve Porter
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− ⚑> Bruno Baketarić
8 years ago edited
Thanks for the comment.
I'm also not a fan of hybrids.
The different parts of Scrum complement each other, so my recommendation to people is to try all them and not to pick-and-choose. The framework is quite
light-weight (more on that in the next post), so this often isn't as burdensome as people think.
In my talks with Daniel, the key practices of Kanban are the same. Complementary and very light weight.
I like your term "conceptual integrity," I'd like to borrow that.
The idea that we're going to challenge is that the two "constraints" can't co-exist in some fashion.
Can Scrum benefit from more granular work in progress limits and can Kanban benefit from Scrum's time boxes (I just picked two of the practices).
Stay tuned.
0 0
Bruno Baketarić − ⚑> Steve Porter
8 years ago
Steve, I'm really sorry, but I cannot lend you that term ... Because I shamelessly stole it from "The Mythical Man-Month" (Brooks, 1975, various places,
especially Chapter 4). :-)
G
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Nevertheless, I believe this term best describes an often overlooked issue in a world full of mashups.
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Dave White
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− ⚑
8 years ago
Hey Steve,
I've been sitting with this tab open for a month, trying to decide what to say. I felt like it was time to close the tab by providing my thoughts. To be clear, I'm speaking
about The Kanban Method when I use the word kanban and I believe that is what this article is talking about when it says Kanban and Scrum are stronger together.
Let me start out stating that I believe that teams and organizations need to be better at addressing customer demand. That pressure is what drives organizations and
teams to adopt a 'process' that they think will help. We would call those processes Scrum and Kanban and that is probably the first point of failure. It is unfortunate that
these processes are seen as incompatible and I applaud your decision to try and change that thinking. It isn't the practices that are incompatible, but the religions that
sprout up around the organizations that evangelize the processes.
Part of me is disappointed with the misconceptions of what kanban is and how it can be applied as demonstrated by the comments. Going through some of the the
comments, I see...
@Hiren Pandya ... the requirements needed to transition to kanban.
Anyone can begin transitioning to kanban at any time because of the lack of prescription of "the one" kanban approach. Kanban has a naturaland specific mindset that
accommodates the current state and an evolutionary path to maturity, of which we are all at different points in our journey. Honestly, transitioning to kanban is as
simple as changing the label we use describe our mindset and values.
@Bruno Baketarić Create hybrids: Beware! --and-- along with an absence of time-boxes or any other time-bound constraint (the Kanban cadences are not constraints).
The problem with this statement is that any approach that is open to adding/removing practices as their value to the team changes will create a hybrid solution. Kanban
by it's very nature creates hybrid solutions as teams take tactical practices from anywhere they choose to enhance they way they deliver value to their customers. The
kanban value system openly embraces the concept of taking practices from anywhere that might improve your team/organizations ability to deliver value to customers.
It has to accept all practices with respect.
Regarding cadences not being constraints, I would posit that a Replenishment meeting with a cadence of 2 weeks is exactly the same kind of time-bound constraint as
a Sprint Planning meeting that happens every 2 weeks. Practically, they are equivalent constraints.
@Mark Chapman I don't quite get what the point is here, they have different uses for different teams.
This seems to be a reinforcement of the myth that Kanban is for teams and teams shouldn't use it. Which is a myth.
Final Thoughts...
After reading your article, and the comments, it makes me wonder why people think that a team couldn't implement a fully "Scrum" set of practices and processes and
name it Kanban. It is 100% possible to do that. I don't know that the opposite is true, in that a team would fully implement a kanban system and call it Scrum. Kanban
allows for far more variation than the Scrum guide does.
I guess in the long run, we are trying to foster collaboration and enhance the strength of our professions by bringing these two communities together, which I think is
very noble and the right thing to do. What I would like to see though is a properly educated discussion about where and how they (Kanban and Scrum) are different (or
not) so that people can make decisions from how to describe what they are doing.
Thank you and Dan for stepping forward and taking on this challenge.
1 0
Steve Porter
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− ⚑> Dave White
8 years ago
Hey Dave, thanks for your well thought out comment. I think you identify a lot of ideas that I share. Please stay tuned. I would love your feedback on the next
two posts (A Scrum primer for Kanban teams and a Kanban primer for Scrum teams).
One idea I'd love to hear your thoughts on (maybe in the later posts) is if you can truly transition to a Kanban system as easily as you described. I'm stealing
some of Daniel's thunder here, but limiting WIP can be revolutionary for some orgs and if you're not limiting WIP, you're not implementing a Kanban system.
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Dave White
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− ⚑> Steve Porter
8 years ago
Steve, I did reply, but it seems to be currently stuck as in a disqus spam queue. I don't know what their SLE is on that queue. :(
0 0
Steve Porter
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− ⚑> Dave White
8 years ago
I read your reply. Weird that I got an email notification, but it didn't get publicly posted. #GoodThingsComeToThoseThatWait.
0 0
Dave White − ⚑> Steve Porter
8 years ago edited
First of all, I spoke of transitioning to The Kanban Method as being very easy. I didn't discuss the implementation of a virtual kanban system as easy,
although in truth, most Scrum teams are already using a virtual kanban system.
Dan and I have had great conversations about WIP limits. Last time might have been in Germany over cocktails, but it was a great conversation.
There are many ways to limit WIP. I, and probably Dan too, would actually probably prefer to call it an optimal WIP policy, but if we are speaking only
about limiting WIP, there are different kinds of policies along the maturity curve that we can use to limit WIP, all with different pros and cons that are
discovered as we go. We choose which of those policies to start with based on organization emotional resistance and education/experience, all the
while understanding that we are using this first policy as a starting point and we expect it to change, sometime frequently, as information about team
workflow evolves.
Some possible policies include...
A Sprint backlog is a WIP limiting policy.
A policy of not starting anything new until your current work is done, is a WIP limit.
Stating everyone can work on 2 things at a time is a WIP limit policy.
A visual token indicating there is capacity to pull is the visualization of a WIP limit policy.
Keeping a flow efficiency number high is a WIP limiting policy.
Canonically, a number at the top of a column on a kanban board is a visualization of an explicit WIP limit policy.
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y, p p p y
The problem with WIP policies (and this certainly applies to many Scrum teams I've seen) is that there is usually no penalty for breaking the policy. It
is an indicator of bad behaviour if the team violates a WIP limit, but it isn't a law and we acknowledge that sometimes we have to violate our WIP
limits due to unforeseen events.
So while I speak about limiting WIP, I don't necessarily write a # on the kanban board until the team discovers the problem with the # not being on the
board, then we decide what to do about it. If I recall correctly, Dan always puts a # on the board, but makes it high enough that there should be no
emotional resistance to it, and then he starts talking about lowering it. I think both approaches have merit.
About 'no WIP limit == no kanban system', generally speaking, I'd state that you have an immature virtual kanban system if you don't have pull-based
work scheduling mechanics in play to manage theflow of work. This is subtly different than saying if your not limiting WIP, you're not implementing
kanban.
0 0
Hiren Pandya
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− ⚑
8 years ago
Often the teams who transition to Agile from a traditional SDLC model, they start with Scrum. Over couple releases that mature in Scrum practices and learn the game.
During the prcoess they get better at requirements management and uniform story sizing, provided they have been learning all the while during their Scrum journey. At
an inflection point, they can transition to Kanban - which is more of a flow based model. When the teams have established good release cadence, have sufficient
backlog in fron of them, they can look forward to optimize cycle time and throughput and that's where the Kanban helps them. Again, when they transition to Kanban
they do not necessarily define WIP limits at the begininning, they do so after some experimentation (I'm sure we all are familar with the penny game - to learn how the
batch size affects the throughput). I was very fotunate enough to get Kanabn training from Mr. Daniel Vacanti :-)
1 0
Steve Porter
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− ⚑> Hiren Pandya
8 years ago
Thanks for your comment.
When you say the "transition to Kanban", what did that look like?
What did that team add from Kanban?
What did that team take away from Scrum?
In relation to those two questions.
Why didn't that team start out with those Kanban practices they added later?
Why did that team stop getting value from the Scrum practices the abandoned?
0 0
Hiren Pandya
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− ⚑> Steve Porter
8 years ago
Hi Steve,
Thanks for your response questions, and an opportunity to converse.
The teams who took to Kanban had matured in engineering practices and estimation practices in Scrum. Besides they were at a point where they
were able to visualize the end to end flow and moving to Kanban helped.
Management had taken conscious decision that once we reach a certain maturity level (People, Process and Technology) we'd move to Kanban to
realize the benefits that a flow based model offers.
Hope this answers your latter quesitons as well.
Thanks
Hiren
0 0
Steve Porter
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− ⚑> Hiren Pandya
8 years ago
Sounds like your teams were able to see a lot of benefits from their move. Congratulations!
Did they stop using any of the Scrum practices?
0 0
Hiren Pandya
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− ⚑> Steve Porter
8 years ago
No, they didn't . Though some of their practices like planning, review - they are truncated. But they still are organized as scrum teams and
most of them are completely self-managed.
1 0
Steve Porter
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− ⚑> Hiren Pandya
8 years ago
That's great, thanks for your comments.
0 0
SK
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− ⚑
5 years ago
Hi Steve, could you please let us know when you expect to release the following topics?
ScrumBan or KanScrum? It’s Neither: How the Two Really Should Work Together
- The two set of practices are not mutually exclusive. We’ll examine how they’re complementary.
Hobson’s Choice: Scrum or Kanban?
- Must you choose one or the other? Should anyone ever have to make that type of decision?
0 0
Steve Porter − ⚑> SK
5 years ago
Hi,
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Sorry, these posts got away from me.
No immediate plans to publish these. I would encourage you to check out blog posts from other PSTs to see if someone else covered these topics.
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Koti Reddy Bhavanam
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− ⚑
8 years ago
This is a great news Steve. I have read that news of scrum with DevOps and now Scrum and Kaban and I think this is the need of the hour to respect whatever make
sense and value addition in the quality software delivery. From my experience I have seen that scrum teams moved to Kanban to reap the benefits of WIP limits and
managing the flow to maximize the throughput. Similarly some of the kanban teams have moved to Scrum framework to reap the benefit of time boxing and scrum
events. I have also seen the way teams calling themselves as Kanban and ScrumKan based on where there inclined. Definitely I think there is a lot to understand and
implement way forward for producing better software to the customers. Looing forward to understand and contribute this concept further.
0 0
Steve Porter
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− ⚑> Koti Reddy Bhavanam
8 years ago
I too have seen teams move from one to the other. What I'm hoping is that when they move, they take all other stuff with them :). You don't need to give up
anything from one to do the other.
0 0
Koti Reddy Bhavanam
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− ⚑> Steve Porter
8 years ago
Yes Steve, agreed and it make sense. As long as we complement the practices and enhance the value, all set to go.
0 0
Hanna
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− ⚑
8 years ago
I think joining Scrum and Kanban like http://kanbantool.com/kanba... is a great idea. In my company this hybrid's used by several IT teams and it works quite well, in the
shorther as well as longer projects (while longer ones were problematic when using Scrum only). So I do support promoting the idea.
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Erik Buitenhuis
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− ⚑
8 years ago
For me, what matters is agile, and Scrum and Kanban are both part of the agile family. This means I'm not in a Scrum or Kanban Camp. I find that agile frameworks and
practices often complement each other. XP practices make Scrum better, and Kanban can add lean concepts like optimizing flow time, removing waste and limiting WIP
to Scrum.
In most teams I apply Scrum, sometimes adding WIP limits (forteams that struggle with too much WIP) or cycle time metrics. For teams that work on a lot of ad hoc
stuff, I usually prefer Kanban. In one occasion, a team kept changing from Scrum to Kanban and back because there were times when ad hoc work dominated the
backlog and other times when work could be planned in Sprints.
0 0
Steve Porter
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− ⚑> Erik Buitenhuis
8 years ago
Thanks for the comment. I like hearing about teams that go back and forth based on their circumstances.
As they go back and forth, what do they change? What do they drop and what do they add?
0 0
Erik Buitenhuis
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− ⚑> Steve Porter
8 years ago
Typically, when moving from Scrum to Kanban, teams keep retrospectives, refinement and daily scrums. When moving from Kanban to Scrum, they
sometimes add WIP limits and cycle time measurements.
In scaled agile environment I often have the majority of teams using Scrum and a few (eg component teams with external dependencies and ready
teams) using Kanban. In those situations a Kanban team may also take part in the Sprint Review and show what they have accomplished.
0 0
Steve Porter
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− ⚑> Erik Buitenhuis
8 years ago
That's great insight, thanks for sharing.
0 0
Naveen Kumar Singh
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− ⚑
8 years ago
Good initiative Steve.
0 0
Abhishek Nahar
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− ⚑
8 years ago edited
Interesting point of view. Would like to read more on this topic.
0 0
Mark Chapman
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− ⚑
8 years ago
I don't quite get what the point is here, they have different uses for different teams. As coaches we shouldn't be allied to any particular process, and should be able to
discuss/coach on multiple ways to ensure the team learn so they can choose for themselves (so you should be coaching them multiple practices). I know people get
hung up on Scrum (in general, obviously here there is a bias), we need to change that.
0 0
Steve Porter − ⚑>Mark Chapman
8 years ago edited
I t t ll I thi k t l t h th " ' (i t h ) t W d 't d (i t th h ) " Th t t th f l ki
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I totally agree. I think teams lose out when they say "we're a (insert name here) team. We don't do (insert other name here)." That may stop them from looking
at what else they could add to make improvements.
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